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	<title>Comments on: On the WCAG  Samurai errata</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/</link>
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		<title>By: bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/comment-page-1/#comment-198161</link>
		<dc:creator>bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/#comment-198161</guid>
		<description>Joe, &lt;a href=&quot;http://wcagsamurai.org/#T2007.07.26&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;chill out&lt;/a&gt;. 

As I said above, &quot;I’m going to be uncharacteristically modest and not ask that the Samurai amend their document because I do things differently sometimes. We all do, and that’s OK ... Here’s how my personal best-practice differs from that described in WCAG+Samurai&quot;.

This isn&#039;t gladiators, my/ our criticism is constructive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, <a href="http://wcagsamurai.org/#T2007.07.26" rel="nofollow">chill out</a>. </p>
<p>As I said above, &#8220;I’m going to be uncharacteristically modest and not ask that the Samurai amend their document because I do things differently sometimes. We all do, and that’s OK &#8230; Here’s how my personal best-practice differs from that described in WCAG+Samurai&#8221;.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t gladiators, my/ our criticism is constructive.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/comment-page-1/#comment-197739</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/#comment-197739</guid>
		<description>Anyone with enough knowledge to argue about these things (a) isn&#039;t the market for the Samurai Errata and (b) could write their own. It&#039;s one group&#039;s opinion, not yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone with enough knowledge to argue about these things (a) isn&#8217;t the market for the Samurai Errata and (b) could write their own. It&#8217;s one group&#8217;s opinion, not yours.</p>
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		<title>By: bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/comment-page-1/#comment-164947</link>
		<dc:creator>bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/#comment-164947</guid>
		<description>Convincing arguments, ppk and Lloydi. Amended my post to that effect.

(I had said:)
&lt;h3&gt;&lt;noscript&gt;&lt;/h3&gt;&lt;p&gt;Banning noscript is absolutely correct from a philosophical standpoint.  However, it makes life much harder for me, as an author who&#039;s not a scripter. As &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200706/wcag_samurai_errata_published/#comment6&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chris Hunt writes&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200706/wcag_samurai_errata_published/#comment6&quot;&gt;&quot;I use a noscript to hold a link to multimap for those whose lack of JS means they can&#039;t use an inline Google Map. I suppose I could use a div which is hidden by a bit of script instead, but it all seems a bit cumbersome when there&#039;s already an element out there to do the job.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I do exactly the same and don&#039;t know how to do it with script alone. I&#039;ll continue to do so; I don&#039;t support compromising accessibility to make the web author&#039;s life easier, but I see no inherent inaccessibility in this use of the element.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Convincing arguments, ppk and Lloydi. Amended my post to that effect.</p>
<p>(I had said:)</p>
<h3>&lt;noscript&gt;</h3>
<p>Banning noscript is absolutely correct from a philosophical standpoint.  However, it makes life much harder for me, as an author who&#8217;s not a scripter. As <a href="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200706/wcag_samurai_errata_published/#comment6" rel="nofollow">Chris Hunt writes</a>, </p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200706/wcag_samurai_errata_published/#comment6"><p>&#8220;I use a noscript to hold a link to multimap for those whose lack of JS means they can&#8217;t use an inline Google Map. I suppose I could use a div which is hidden by a bit of script instead, but it all seems a bit cumbersome when there&#8217;s already an element out there to do the job.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I do exactly the same and don&#8217;t know how to do it with script alone. I&#8217;ll continue to do so; I don&#8217;t support compromising accessibility to make the web author&#8217;s life easier, but I see no inherent inaccessibility in this use of the element.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Lloyd</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/comment-page-1/#comment-164915</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Lloyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/#comment-164915</guid>
		<description>Bruce, to add to what PPK said about older browsers, there&#039;s another scenario:

* Browser is JS capable
* Firewall strips some (or all) external JavaScript

Hence, the  content isn&#039;t displayed and the JS does not get triggered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, to add to what PPK said about older browsers, there&#8217;s another scenario:</p>
<p>* Browser is JS capable<br />
* Firewall strips some (or all) external JavaScript</p>
<p>Hence, the  content isn&#8217;t displayed and the JS does not get triggered.</p>
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		<title>By: ppk</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/comment-page-1/#comment-164751</link>
		<dc:creator>ppk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/#comment-164751</guid>
		<description>&quot;inherent inaccessibility in this use of the noscript element.&quot;

The problem with noscript is old JavaScript browsers. Take Netscape 4 - it doesn&#039;t support modern W3C DOM JavaScripts, but as soon as you use the noscript tag you ask it &quot;Do you support JavaScript at all?&quot;, and it&#039;ll answer Yes, since by its own lights it supports JavaScript.

So the few remaining Netscape 4 users will not get the scripted interface, but neither will they get the noscript interface. That makes the site inaccessible.

True, this group of users is not very large, but it&#039;s often relatively easy to avoid use of the noscript tag.

I&#039;m not sure if this is what the WCAG Samurai meant, but it&#039;s the reason I don&#039;t use noscript any more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;inherent inaccessibility in this use of the noscript element.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem with noscript is old JavaScript browsers. Take Netscape 4 &#8211; it doesn&#8217;t support modern W3C DOM JavaScripts, but as soon as you use the noscript tag you ask it &#8220;Do you support JavaScript at all?&#8221;, and it&#8217;ll answer Yes, since by its own lights it supports JavaScript.</p>
<p>So the few remaining Netscape 4 users will not get the scripted interface, but neither will they get the noscript interface. That makes the site inaccessible.</p>
<p>True, this group of users is not very large, but it&#8217;s often relatively easy to avoid use of the noscript tag.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure if this is what the WCAG Samurai meant, but it&#8217;s the reason I don&#8217;t use noscript any more.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/comment-page-1/#comment-164696</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2007 06:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/index.php/2007/wcag-samurai-errata/#comment-164696</guid>
		<description>Cheers Alistair: the malformed definition list: do you mean the html was invalid? (I&#039;m not understanding how this example shows that valid css is an accessibility requirement).

You say &lt;q&gt;&quot;In some browsers invalid hacks can cause the rest of the style sheet to be ignored.&quot;&lt;/q&gt; - do you have a reference to which browsers and which hacks these are? (And are disastrous bugs like  a combination of characters causing rendering failure/ browser crash &lt;em&gt;accessibility&lt;/em&gt; problems, except in the least-technical sense of the word?)

The argument against requiring people to use conditional comments is that they themselves are against specification (although they validate fine, and the argument isn&#039;t a particularly compelling one to me).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheers Alistair: the malformed definition list: do you mean the html was invalid? (I&#8217;m not understanding how this example shows that valid css is an accessibility requirement).</p>
<p>You say <q>&#8220;In some browsers invalid hacks can cause the rest of the style sheet to be ignored.&#8221;</q> &#8211; do you have a reference to which browsers and which hacks these are? (And are disastrous bugs like  a combination of characters causing rendering failure/ browser crash <em>accessibility</em> problems, except in the least-technical sense of the word?)</p>
<p>The argument against requiring people to use conditional comments is that they themselves are against specification (although they validate fine, and the argument isn&#8217;t a particularly compelling one to me).</p>
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