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	<title>Comments on: Standards.Next: cognition and accessibility</title>
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		<title>By: bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/standards-next-cognition-and-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-639456</link>
		<dc:creator>bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/?p=2094#comment-639456</guid>
		<description>Ben - in the real world of commercial web development, people won&#039;t use any of the new form input types if they look ugly and can&#039;t be styled to fit the rest of the page.

jQuery UI http://jqueryui.com/ has some great-looking widgets faked in JavaScript; no incentive for devs to move from that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben &#8211; in the real world of commercial web development, people won&#8217;t use any of the new form input types if they look ugly and can&#8217;t be styled to fit the rest of the page.</p>
<p>jQuery UI <a href="http://jqueryui.com/" rel="nofollow">http://jqueryui.com/</a> has some great-looking widgets faked in JavaScript; no incentive for devs to move from that.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Millard</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/standards-next-cognition-and-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-638707</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Millard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 20:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/?p=2094#comment-638707</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Unfortunately, I see nothing in CSS that allows me to style calendar widgets for input type=&quot;date&quot; so I could (for example) style weekends in red and weekdays in black, or change the way the pointer looks on input type=&quot;range&quot;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed. That&#039;s why I think the money should be going on the long-term CSS solutions to these things, instead of band-aid-to-HTML solutions like WAI-ARIA.

&quot;Do it once, do it right.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Unfortunately, I see nothing in CSS that allows me to style calendar widgets for input type=&#8221;date&#8221; so I could (for example) style weekends in red and weekdays in black, or change the way the pointer looks on input type=&#8221;range&#8221;.</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed. That&#8217;s why I think the money should be going on the long-term CSS solutions to these things, instead of band-aid-to-HTML solutions like WAI-ARIA.</p>
<p>&#8220;Do it once, do it right.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Alberto Calvo</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/standards-next-cognition-and-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-636596</link>
		<dc:creator>Alberto Calvo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 08:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/?p=2094#comment-636596</guid>
		<description>Another stuff that I want to aboard is the ugly default style for HTML5 forms on Opera, which I really hope they can be changed in the future. Using colors and complicate metaphors are bad ideas. What about using a set of default SVG glyphs that change its color depending of the input&#039;s color property? Of course, that SVG glyphs, should be able to change to via CSS :)

In example, you could check http://www.culinaryculture.com/ . Don&#039;t check the source, but the glyphs. IMO, they&#039;re pretty much well integrated with every page design. They&#039;re neutral with the design and very meaningful to the user.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another stuff that I want to aboard is the ugly default style for HTML5 forms on Opera, which I really hope they can be changed in the future. Using colors and complicate metaphors are bad ideas. What about using a set of default SVG glyphs that change its color depending of the input&#8217;s color property? Of course, that SVG glyphs, should be able to change to via CSS <img src='http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>In example, you could check <a href="http://www.culinaryculture.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.culinaryculture.com/</a> . Don&#8217;t check the source, but the glyphs. IMO, they&#8217;re pretty much well integrated with every page design. They&#8217;re neutral with the design and very meaningful to the user.</p>
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		<title>By: bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/standards-next-cognition-and-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-636409</link>
		<dc:creator>bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 08:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/?p=2094#comment-636409</guid>
		<description>Ben, the source is an email.

I can&#039;t see what the main point of your comment was; if it was to tell me that you disagree with my markup choices, then: noted.

I agree with you that &quot;Native controls are natively accessible. Styling them with CSS is consistent with styling anything else in HTML.&quot;

Unfortunately, I see nothing in CSS that allows me to style calendar widgets for &lt;code&gt;input type=&quot;date&quot;&lt;/code&gt; so I could (for example) style weekends in red and weekdays in black, or change the way the pointer looks on &lt;code&gt;input type=&quot;range&quot;&lt;/code&gt;.

Until these can be styled by designers, they will use the jQuery-like UI libraries that allow such styling as they &quot;fake&quot; the form controls. This means potentially less accessibility, more code and slower uptake of the native form controls.

If it were up to me, I would like the browser manufacturers to get together to agree a temporary measure for solving designers&#039; natural wish to style. Perhaps something like vendor specific CSS but instead of a vendor prefix, something like -html5-slider-pointer that could be given a background image, colours etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, the source is an email.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t see what the main point of your comment was; if it was to tell me that you disagree with my markup choices, then: noted.</p>
<p>I agree with you that &#8220;Native controls are natively accessible. Styling them with CSS is consistent with styling anything else in HTML.&#8221;</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I see nothing in CSS that allows me to style calendar widgets for <code>input type="date"</code> so I could (for example) style weekends in red and weekdays in black, or change the way the pointer looks on <code>input type="range"</code>.</p>
<p>Until these can be styled by designers, they will use the jQuery-like UI libraries that allow such styling as they &#8220;fake&#8221; the form controls. This means potentially less accessibility, more code and slower uptake of the native form controls.</p>
<p>If it were up to me, I would like the browser manufacturers to get together to agree a temporary measure for solving designers&#8217; natural wish to style. Perhaps something like vendor specific CSS but instead of a vendor prefix, something like -html5-slider-pointer that could be given a background image, colours etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Millard</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/standards-next-cognition-and-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-636255</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Millard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 13:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/?p=2094#comment-636255</guid>
		<description>Bruce, what was the original source for that quote? The &lt;code&gt;cite&lt;/code&gt; attribute is absent from the &lt;code&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;/code&gt; and the preceding paragraph only points to the homepage of the author.

I tried some searches using that website&#039;s search box but couldn&#039;t find a page with the content you have quoted. For example, there were &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.zeroedandnoughted.com/?s=BSkyB&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;no results from a search for &quot;BSkyB&quot;&lt;/a&gt;.

As for whether an ordered list should use &lt;code&gt;&lt;ol&gt;&lt;/code&gt;, well, I thought semantic markup was a good thing? :P

If you are quoting from speech rather than from a written source, conveying the structure of that speech using markup is appropriate. Especially since text loses the manner and timing with which it was said. (The absence of speechmarks mean I&#039;m not sure speech was the source, either.)

Adjusting poor form when quoting material is also a valid thing to do, so long as the edits are marked. This includes correcting typos, removing invalid or presentational markup, changing the visual style and replacing URLs-as-link-text with proper link text. All come under the editorial prerogative of a site owner who chooses to quote from another source, AFAICT.

Such edits do not change the meaning. On the contrary: they make the meaning more apparent.

Did you have any thoughts about the main body of my comment?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, what was the original source for that quote? The <code>cite</code> attribute is absent from the <code>&lt;blockquote&gt;</code> and the preceding paragraph only points to the homepage of the author.</p>
<p>I tried some searches using that website&#8217;s search box but couldn&#8217;t find a page with the content you have quoted. For example, there were <a href="http://www.zeroedandnoughted.com/?s=BSkyB" rel="nofollow">no results from a search for &#8220;BSkyB&#8221;</a>.</p>
<p>As for whether an ordered list should use <code>&lt;ol&gt;</code>, well, I thought semantic markup was a good thing? <img src='http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>If you are quoting from speech rather than from a written source, conveying the structure of that speech using markup is appropriate. Especially since text loses the manner and timing with which it was said. (The absence of speechmarks mean I&#8217;m not sure speech was the source, either.)</p>
<p>Adjusting poor form when quoting material is also a valid thing to do, so long as the edits are marked. This includes correcting typos, removing invalid or presentational markup, changing the visual style and replacing URLs-as-link-text with proper link text. All come under the editorial prerogative of a site owner who chooses to quote from another source, AFAICT.</p>
<p>Such edits do not change the meaning. On the contrary: they make the meaning more apparent.</p>
<p>Did you have any thoughts about the main body of my comment?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Workman</title>
		<link>http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2009/standards-next-cognition-and-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-636050</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Workman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:03:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/?p=2094#comment-636050</guid>
		<description>I completely agree, every aspect of HTML should be able to be styled. Imagine a brand web site where oddly-styled pop-ups started appearing, the marketing/brand manager would have a fit!

The real question is how, how can we use CSS to style native form elements.

Making an assumption that the native form assistants are made using HTML, they need to be standardised and selectable i.e. input[&quot;date&quot;] &gt; calendar { background:blue; }. I&#039;m very open to ideas as to how to do it but I can&#039;t see much else. I&#039;m still wondering how I&#039;d style the  tag to make it look like those in the HTML 5 doctor&#039;s post http://html5doctor.com/measure-up-with-the-meter-tag/ - very open to non-DOM manipulation methods here too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree, every aspect of HTML should be able to be styled. Imagine a brand web site where oddly-styled pop-ups started appearing, the marketing/brand manager would have a fit!</p>
<p>The real question is how, how can we use CSS to style native form elements.</p>
<p>Making an assumption that the native form assistants are made using HTML, they need to be standardised and selectable i.e. input["date"] &gt; calendar { background:blue; }. I&#8217;m very open to ideas as to how to do it but I can&#8217;t see much else. I&#8217;m still wondering how I&#8217;d style the  tag to make it look like those in the HTML 5 doctor&#8217;s post <a href="http://html5doctor.com/measure-up-with-the-meter-tag/" rel="nofollow">http://html5doctor.com/measure-up-with-the-meter-tag/</a> &#8211; very open to non-DOM manipulation methods here too.</p>
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